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Edward Williams
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Location: I am from everywhere I've ever been and everywhere I've never been

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 7:19 am    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

HighHouse wrote:
So V_God, you agree with me?

Are you asking me if I agree with the statement below?

"The only reason a white person wants to talk to a non-white person about racism (white supremacy) is to convince the non-white person they are not a white supremacist (racist) and/or to practice white supremacy (racism)."
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cloudsong



Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 327
Location: Arlington VA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure what I said in this thread that sounded like I was trying to convince you about myself but in any case I will not try to convince anyone here of my commitment to justice.

"The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who maintained a position of neutrality in times of crisis."

I believe in speaking truth to power, as Madison says.

Power is always abused unless ordinary people question it.

Does anyone want to drive out to Louisville Ky. to meet with police there abut the killing of young black men at a high rate by the police there?

There is also a march at Rev. Louis Coleman's church on April 30 at noon. I'm driving out of here on the afternoon of the 29th, and driving back after the march.

I can take four people in my car. I'm not saying this to convince you of anything, I'm saying it partly because I could use the help driving, too.

cloudsong
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HelixHair



Joined: 30 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 5:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

cloudsong wrote:
Helixhair, sorry I didn't ask this sooner but let's backtrack to get complete agreement on definitions here.

How are you defining the term of a White supremacist/racist?

cloudsong


I could be incorrect. But I suspect this is the The Logic.

White Supremacist = A "white" person who engages in any behavior that is not, for the duration of that behavior, her/his maximum and smartest effort to counter Racism (White Supremacy)
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Last edited by HelixHair on Tue Apr 20, 2004 12:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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cloudsong



Joined: 12 Feb 2004
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Location: Arlington VA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Helixhair, that's similar to the definition I've been leaning toward.

I get flummoxed when considering ordinary behaviors of white people though -- like sitting eating a picnic lunch in the park with your kids. Is that the maximum effort towards justice - no, but it's neutral.

Any thoughts on those kinds of times? I'm trying to figure this out in my mind and re my own life.

cloudsong
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HelixHair



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 8:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

cloudsong wrote:
Helixhair, that's similar to the definition I've been leaning toward.

I get flummoxed when considering ordinary behaviors of white people though -- like sitting eating a picnic lunch in the park with your kids. Is that the maximum effort towards justice - no, but it's neutral.

Any thoughts on those kinds of times? I'm trying to figure this out in my mind and re my own life.

cloudsong




I am not qualified to declare what behaviors, at any given time, are a white person's maximum and smartest effort to counter Racism (White Supremacy). That is something that should be codified only by white people who are attempting to replace White Supremacy (Racism) with justice. However, I do hold that there are no neutral behaviors in a war. (Based on statements he has made, I suspect that is held to be true by President George Bush also.)

Racism (White Supremacy) is a war declared on non-"white" people.
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Last edited by HelixHair on Tue Apr 20, 2004 12:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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HelixHair



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HelixHair wrote:
White people can do the following: 1)bring transparency to all decisons that people make that affect other people so that mistreatment and mistreaters are unmasked; 2) develop projects designed to give help to those persons everywhere who are most in need of help; 3) calculate what each white person must contribute to these projects each week and month in order that all persons, everywhere, have what they need; and 4)Identify those white persons who do not make their necessary weekly, monthly contribution and devise effective disincentives for the lack of diligence.

Why can't white people do that? Why can't you, Cloudsong, start this today? Why can't you post, on this board, within two weeks your project schedule of getting white people with needed knowledge and resources to sit and plan the above?


Cloudsong wrote:
The answers to your questions are:

1) White people CAN do that.

2) I can start this -- given the mess I've gotten myself into in my life, I may not be able to start it today, but I WOULD like to start it as soon as possible.

3) I can post that on this board but the time schedule of two weeks might not be reasonable for me right now.


The answers to your questions are:

1) White people CAN do that.

2) I can start this -- given the mess I've gotten myself into in my life, I may not be able to start it today, but I WOULD like to start it as soon as possible.

3) I can post that on this board but the time schedule of two weeks might not be reasonable for me right now.


Cloudsong, when can you post, on this board, your project schedule of getting white people with needed knowledge and resources to sit and plan the “blue” items 1-4?
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HelixHair



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 9:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

HelixHair wrote:
cloudsong wrote:
Yes that's what I"m saying if there are no categories to distinguish a John Brown from a David Duke.

cloudsong


So, are 6-month old babies, who are classified as white, Racists (White Supremacists)?


Cloudsong, ?
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cloudsong



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Helixhair, sorry I didn't get to that question about babies - Six-month old babies are not able to hold anyone in subjugation (except their parents in terms of being subjugated to meet the baby's every need) and are not aware of anyone's function except as it relates to meeting their needs.

Their brains are not fully developed, and the connections in their brains are still being wired by what they experience, especially being wired by the interaction with the mother or the primary caretaker.

I think it would be hard for a baby to be held repsonsible for anything it thinks or does, so no I would not think a six-month old baby could be considered a white supremacist/racist in a system of white supremacy.

I need to figure out a date by which I can fulfill the task in the other post of yours -- and I will, and will post it here.

cloudsong
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cloudsong



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 7:09 am    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

Helixhair, as long as we're going back to unanswerered questions, although you almost always answer my questions - 99% of the time -- these following are two you didn't answer. Several of my questions to other people have gone unanswered here but you're usually someone who answers, so I thought I'd post them again.

I'm particularly interested to know if my categorizing different kinds of practicises of white supremacy, including omission versus commission and "going along with" versus "living in and being conditioned in this society" versus "active commission of racist acts", is helpful at all when having people named to you, by me. To me it is essential to make those distinctions, as a "white" person who is being asked to name people. Otherwise, as I said, I am putting John Brown into the same category with David Duke or George Bush - which doesn't seem as helpful to me as distinguishing between them.

[quote="cloudsong"]Helixhair - have I said anything helpful to you on these forums?

Would you give me feedback as to what have I said that was helpful?
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HelixHair



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 12:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

cloudsong wrote:
Hi Helixhair, sorry I didn't get to that question about babies - Six-month old babies are not able to hold anyone in subjugation (except their parents in terms of being subjugated to meet the baby's every need) and are not aware of anyone's function except as it relates to meeting their needs.

Their brains are not fully developed, and the connections in their brains are still being wired by what they experience, especially being wired by the interaction with the mother or the primary caretaker.

I think it would be hard for a baby to be held repsonsible for anything it thinks or does, so no I would not think a six-month old baby could be considered a white supremacist/racist in a system of white supremacy.

I need to figure out a date by which I can fulfill the task in the other post of yours -- and I will, and will post it here.

cloudsong


Thank you for your answer and explanation, Cloudsong. Given your answer, do you agree that "every white person is a Racist (White Supremacist)" is a false statement?
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cloudsong



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that is a false statement.

But every "white" person except babies and the mentally impaired are white supremacists in the broad definition of not countering racism to the best of their ability at every possible moment, or in the broad definition of anyone who's had ANY white supremacist conditioning, even one iota, living in this world --

-- what I"m trying to get at is when I've been asked if I'm a white supremacist and when I've said no on the Code in the beginning, I was told I was lying because I watched Snow White, I grew up in this culture. So then I said yes.

But I just think it's more valuable to VORs to be told how and why someone is a white supremacist, rather than just have a name. Believe me, having my name because I grew up watching Snow White and dreaming of some prince on a white horse who never came is VERY different than having Don Rumsfeld's name because he'll not value your life as much as I will, that has been shown for sure.

You need to know who will hurt you, how they will hurt you, when they will hurt you, how to prevent them from hurting you.

cloudsong
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HelixHair



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

cloudsong wrote:
Helixhair, as long as we're going back to unanswerered questions, although you almost always answer my questions - 99% of the time -- these following are two you didn't answer. Several of my questions to other people have gone unanswered here but you're usually someone who answers, so I thought I'd post them again

I'm particularly interested to know if my categorizing different kinds of practicises of white supremacy, including omission versus commission and "going along with" versus "living in and being conditioned in this society" versus "active commission of racist acts", is helpful at all when having people named to you, by me. To me it is essential to make those distinctions, as a "white" person who is being asked to name people. Otherwise, as I said, I am putting John Brown into the same category with David Duke or George Bush - which doesn't seem as helpful to me as distinguishing between them.

cloudsong wrote:
Helixhair - have I said anything helpful to you on these forums?
Would you give me feedback as to what have I said that was helpful?


No, Cloudsong, such categories are not helpful to me and here's why: I have no way of knowing what Racist acts are more damaging than another. Being presented with those categories puts me in the position of a parole officer who is told that a parolee is guilty of lawbreaking that is "commission", "ommision", "going along with', or "living in and being conditioned in this society." That is not enough information for me to know how to prioritize my caseload or to efficiently devise safety measures. I could end up staking out the house of a parollee who is guilty of the commision of theft of a beer while meeting monthly with the offender who went along with the sale of cocaine to gradeschoolers.

I need to know exactly what was done that should not have been done and who did it. And/Or, I need to know what was not done that should have been done and who did not do it.


As to your second question, yes, you have posted information I found helpful. I will need no more than 10 days to review your posts and state, specifically, what I found helpful.
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Edward Williams
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Location: I am from everywhere I've ever been and everywhere I've never been

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

HelixHair wrote:
Thank you for your answer and explanation, Cloudsong. Given your answer, do you agree that "every white person is a Racist (White Supremacist)" is a false statement?


cloudsong wrote:
Yes, that is a false statement.

But every "white" person except babies and the mentally impaired are white supremacists in the broad definition of not countering racism to the best of their ability at every possible moment, or in the broad definition of anyone who's had ANY white supremacist conditioning, even one iota, living in this world --

-- what I"m trying to get at is when I've been asked if I'm a white supremacist and when I've said no on the Code in the beginning, I was told I was lying because I watched Snow White, I grew up in this culture. So then I said yes.

But I just think it's more valuable to VORs to be told how and why someone is a white supremacist, rather than just have a name. Believe me, having my name because I grew up watching Snow White and dreaming of some prince on a white horse who never came is VERY different than having Don Rumsfeld's name because he'll not value your life as much as I will, that has been shown for sure.

You need to know who will hurt you, how they will hurt you, when they will hurt you, how to prevent them from hurting you.

cloudsong


[Non-White People: Keep in mind this is the same whitye person that stated all white people practice white supremacy (racism)]

cloudsong, you have perjured yourself and are in contempt of justice, something you claim to be attempting to produce.
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cloudsong



Joined: 12 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey wow, we're in agreement!! I absolutely agree that knowing exactly what was done or is going to be done is the ticket

-- so yes, the categories I made aren't the ticket, you're right.

Don't worry about going thru and finding what I wrote that you found helpful. I don't even know why I asked -- sometimes I just find myself wondering if my time here is helping anyone -- I find myself being helped here enormously as a 'white' person in many ways.

But as to my helpfulness really I'm better at person to person interaction if I could get my butt out of the house on a regular basis, I'd like to volunteer at a women's shelter or somewhere that I can see the results of efforts.

But I really enjoy the meeting of the minds here, and I DO want to be MORE helpful.

I think giving you actions is the right way to go. May I start with what I think is the most menacing person and thing to VORs in this country right now? I'ts Ashcroft and the Patriot Act, gearing up to convict drug offenders under the rules of terrorism in the Patriot Act, which means no right to the usual legal rights or recourse.

THAT'S SCARY and I feel sure it's going to be used against young black men. I think that's their whole purpose.

cloudsong
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cloudsong



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

V-God, I'm confused. How have I perjured myself?

I am saying that all white people are white supremacists in a broad definition. Am I contradicting that somehow in that post?

What do you mean, I'm not sure...

cloudsong
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