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HelixHair



Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Posts: 383
Location: Everywhere that is nowhere

PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Virtual_GOD wrote:
HelixHair wrote:
smallz wrote:
cloudsong wrote:
Sometimes I think it's more important to name someone for "going along with white supremacy" than for "being a white supremacist"....

I don't know what's in someone's soul. But they have to be held responsible for their actions.

Any action that hurts black people should be prosecuted. cloudsong


Cloudsong, there is already a title for a white person who choses "going along with white supremacy":

That would be a racist/white supremacist.

Are you attempting to devise another classifacation for white people who "choose to go along with white supremacy"?

smallz


smallz, given that definition, what criteri(a)(on) differentiates a white person from a white supremacist?

That's a good question HelixHair. Unfortunately, I have no mechanism for determining which white person practices white supremacy (racism) and white people have shown me that they will not tell me, in any large number, which white people practice white supremacy (racism).

I can observe some behavior and attempt to list criteria but I could be incorrect about that. In an effort to minimize my victimization of the white people that practice white supremacy (racism) it is safer for me to follow THE LOGIC and view every white person who I observe as having the ability to practice white supremacy (racism) as a racist suspect.

This way I don't have to do a lot of head-scratching trying to figure out which white person is or is not a white supremacist (racist). In order to know for sure if a white person is a white supremacist (racist) you gotta be a white person.


Virtual_ God, I believe I understand what you have written and I don't disagree. I believe you gave a response to an important question but a different question than the one I asked.

I asked the criteria that separates white people from the white supremacists. I did not ask the identity of the individual people who practice white supremacy. The criteria should be knowable even when the identity is not. In the legal code here in California are the criteria for differentiating a first degree murderer from a second degree murderer. In many cases the only criterion is what is called "malice aforethought." I deliberated on a jury in which some jurors said they could not determine whether one of defendants had malice aforethought when the murder was committed. However, all of the jurors knew the criteria for determining whether the murder was committed in the first degree rather than a lesser charge. This is what I'm asking in regard to white supremacist v. white person. Not who meets the criterion, nor the mecahnism for determining who does, but simply "What is the criterion?"

I concur that white supremacy can be practiced by commission and/or ommission. This is why every white person is a white supremacist whose brain, by age, birth defect, and/or physical trauma, is not incapacitated to be such, and, who is not actively engaged in Counter-Racism every moment.

It is illogical for me to name any white person as a white supremacist since I, a non-white person, cannot know whether an act is Counter-Racist while Racism(white supremacy) exists. However, white people can know or they can find out. White people are master project managers who know how to complete mind-bogglingly ambitious projects on schedule. The schedule for justice is as fast as people can physically accomplish it. Not the old U.S. Supreme Court standard of "with all deliberate speed." No soft psychological or social factors. If those factors are an unalterable factor, they will manifest in a physical way in the same manner as non-white people are dying from them now.

White people can do the following: 1)bring transparency to all decisons that people make that affect other people so that mistreatment and mistreaters are unmasked; 2) develop projects designed to give help to those persons everywhere who are most in need of help; 3) calculate what each white person must contribute to these projects each week and month in order that all persons, everywhere, have what they need; and 4)Identify those white persons who do not make their necessary weekly, monthly contribution and devise effective disincentives for the lack of dilligence.

Why can't white people do that? Why can't you, Cloudsong, start this today? Why can't you post, on this board, within two weeks your project schedule of getting white people with needed knowledge and resources to sit and plan the above?

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Last edited by HelixHair on Sat Apr 17, 2004 6:15 am; edited 3 times in total
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Edward Williams
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

HelixHair wrote:
Virtual_GOD wrote:
HelixHair wrote:
smallz wrote:
cloudsong wrote:
Sometimes I think it's more important to name someone for "going along with white supremacy" than for "being a white supremacist"....

I don't know what's in someone's soul. But they have to be held responsible for their actions.

Any action that hurts black people should be prosecuted. cloudsong


Cloudsong, there is already a title for a white person who choses "going along with white supremacy":

That would be a racist/white supremacist.

Are you attempting to devise another classifacation for white people who "choose to go along with white supremacy"?

smallz


smallz, given that definition, what criteri(a)(on) differentiates a white person from a white supremacist?

That's a good question HelixHair. Unfortunately, I have no mechanism for determining which white person practices white supremacy (racism) and white people have shown me that they will not tell me, in any large number, which white people practice white supremacy (racism).

I can observe some behavior and attempt to list criteria but I could be incorrect about that. In an effort to minimize my victimization of the white people that practice white supremacy (racism) it is safer for me to follow THE LOGIC and view every white person who I observe as having the ability to practice white supremacy (racism) as a racist suspect.

This way I don't have to do a lot of head-scratching trying to figure out which white person is or is not a white supremacist (racist). In order to know for sure if a white person is a white supremacist (racist) you gotta be a white person.


Virtual_ God, I believe I understand what you have written and I don't disagree. I believe you gave a response to an important question but a different question than the one I asked.

I asked the criteria that separates white people from the white supremacists. I did not ask the identity of the individual people who practice white supremacy. The criteria should be knowable even when the identity is not. In the legal code here in California are the criteria for differentiating a first degree murderer from a second degree murderer. In many cases the only criterion is what is called "malice aforethought." I deliberated on a jury in which some jurors said they could not determine whether one of defendants had malice aforethought when the murder was committed. However, all of the jurors knew the criteria for determining whether the murder was committed in the first degree rather than a lesser charge. This is what I'm asking in regard to white supremacist v. white person. Not who meets the criterion, nor the mecahnism for determining who does, but simply "What is the criterion?"

I concur that white supremacy can be practiced by either commission and/or ommission. This is why every white person is a white supremacist whose brain is not incapacitated to do so by age, birth defect, and/or physical trauma and who is not actively engaged in Counter-Racism every moment.

It is illogical for me to name any white person as a white supremacist since I, a non-white person, cannot know whether an act is Counter-Racist while Racism(white supremacy) exists. However, white people can know or they can find out. White people are master project managers who know how to complete mind-bogglingly ambitious projects on schedule. The schedule for justice is as fast as people can physically accomplish it. Not the old U.S. Supreme Court standard of "all deliberate speed." No soft phychological or social factors. If those factors are an unalterable factor, they will manifest in a physical way in the same manner as Non-white people are dying from them now.

White people can do the following: 1)bring transparancy to all decisons that people make that affect other people so that mistreatment ansd mistreaters are unmasked; and 2) develop projects designed to give help to those persons everywhere who are most in need of help. White people can calculate what each white person must contribute to these projects each week and month in order that all persons, everywhere, have what they need; 3)Identify those white persons who do not make etheir necessary weekly, monthly contribution and devise effective incentives or disincentives for the lack of dilligence.

Why can't white people do that? Why can't you, Cloudsong, start this today? Why can't you post, on this board, within two weeks your project schedule of getting white people with knowledge and resources to sit and plan the above?

Logically, only a white person has the criteria for what a white person is and what a white supremacist (racist) is.
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HelixHair



Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Posts: 383
Location: Everywhere that is nowhere

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Virtual_God wrote:
Logically, only a white person has the criteria for what a white person is and what a white supremacist (racist) is.


Do you have a definition for Racism/White Supremacy, Virtual_God? If so, is a White Supremacist (Racist) a person who practices Racism/White Supremacy? If not, please explain.
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cloudsong



Joined: 12 Feb 2004
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Location: Arlington VA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Helixhair, I'm fascinated by your suggestion for me - and for every white person. I feel it's how we should live our daily lives as a matter of breathing, anyway -- everything should be countering racism.

Can you give specific examples of projects? I have some in mind but if you want to give more detail of what you have in mind, I'd be interested in getting more of your thoughts. And I will come back with some ideas that come to me.

cloudsong
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Edward Williams
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Joined: 12 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 7:08 am    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

HelixHair wrote:
Virtual_God wrote:
Logically, only a white person has the criteria for what a white person is and what a white supremacist (racist) is.


Do you have a definition for Racism/White Supremacy, Virtual_God? If so, is a White Supremacist (Racist) a person who practices Racism/White Supremacy? If not, please explain.

Yes. Yes.
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cloudsong



Joined: 12 Feb 2004
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Location: Arlington VA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Helixhair, re making it an operative and enforceable policy to prosecute any white person who does anything to hurt black people

-- that'a a very good question, how to do that.

I think there are three separte ways of hurting black people, and each should be prosecuted differently.

One is practicing white supremacy/racism actively.

Two is a sin of omission -- it is by not protesting or objecting to the white supremacy/racism all around.

Sub-group under that is not SEEING the white supremac/racism all around -- not seeing that your bowl of corn flakes was grown by white farmers because black farmers weren't given loans, and were squeezed out of farming. Etc.

Number three, is going along with white supremacy racism. "Going along with" is different from living in a system of white supremacy/racism and failing to protest.

Failing to protest is one thing, but going along with is a more deliberate form of complicity -- going along with is giving one's passive consent, whereas failing to protest is more what 99% of people do in just living in this system.

I'm not explaining this right. Let me think how to differentiate better.

cloudsong
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HelixHair



Joined: 30 Apr 2003
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Location: Everywhere that is nowhere

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 10:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

HelixHair wrote:
White people can do the following: 1)bring transparancy to all decisons that people make that affect other people so that mistreatment and mistreaters are unmasked; 2) develop projects designed to give help to those persons everywhere who are most in need of help; 3) calculate what each white person must contribute to these projects each week and month in order that all persons, everywhere, have what they need; and 4)Identify those white persons who do not make their necessary weekly, monthly contribution and devise effective disincentives for the lack of dilligence.

Why can't white people do that? Why can't you, Cloudsong, start this today? Why can't you post, on this board, within two weeks your project schedule of getting white people with needed knowledge and resources to sit and plan the above?



cloudsong wrote:
Helixhair, I'm fascinated by your suggestion for me - and for every white person. I feel it's how we should live our daily lives as a matter of breathing, anyway -- everything should be countering racism.

Can you give specific examples of projects? I have some in mind but if you want to give more detail of what you have in mind, I'd be interested in getting more of your thoughts. And I will come back with some ideas that come to me.

cloudsong


Cloudsong, in the chronic and acute state of a Victim Of Racism (White Supremacy), I am disappointed. I asked you three questions about giving non-white people help. Instead of answering, you asked me for help....(((holding my head))) That's analogous to a malnutritioned, starving four year-old child asking her mother "Why can't you fix me breakfast before you leave for work?" and having the mother reply, "Well, lets talk about it when I get home. I'd like to hear from you, in detail, what kinds of things need to be considered when preparing a nutritious meal for a four-year-old." C'mon Cloudsong! Are you going to stand and deliver before one of the VORs on this board expires?

*In the interest of clarity, Cloudsong. I've now asked you four questions.
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Last edited by HelixHair on Sat Apr 17, 2004 6:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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HighHouse



Joined: 31 Jan 2004
Posts: 153

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha
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cloudsong



Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 327
Location: Arlington VA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Helixhair, I don't like the tone of you reply. It's not like you can't think along these lines too. I don't agree that victims of racism can't help think of helpful projects. V-God gave me a lot of help on the experiment set up.

I've got quagmires in my own life too, I can't always jump at every single question. I gave a thoughtful answer that I thought encompassed the gist of your idea without numbering my answers specifically. The gist was, yes it's a great idea, let's both think about how it would work. And I"ve been thinking -- haven't been ready to answer more yet. I do think before I spout, most of the time.

I'm feeling a little misunderstood by your reaction.

I'll get over it. It's just that I have some quagmires in my own life. Please excuse me for a while while I get my own life in order or I won't HAVE a life or a brain to post here. I'll be back when I've gotten out of some troubles I've gotten myself into.

cloudsong
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HelixHair



Joined: 30 Apr 2003
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Location: Everywhere that is nowhere

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 4:28 am    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

cloudsong wrote:
Helixhair, I don't like the tone of you reply. It's not like you can't think along these lines too. I don't agree that victims of racism can't help think of helpful projects. V-God gave me a lot of help on the experiment set up.

I've got quagmires in my own life too, I can't always jump at every single question. I gave a thoughtful answer that I thought encompassed the gist of your idea without numbering my answers specifically. The gist was, yes it's a great idea, let's both think about how it would work. And I"ve been thinking -- haven't been ready to answer more yet. I do think before I spout, most of the time.

I'm feeling a little misunderstood by your reaction.

I'll get over it. It's just that I have some quagmires in my own life. Please excuse me for a while while I get my own life in order or I won't HAVE a life or a brain to post here. I'll be back when I've gotten out of some troubles I've gotten myself into.

cloudsong


A) Cloudsong, considering the average length and number of your posts on this site as well as those on thecode.net, that was a very interesting response. Perhaps you should re-read the questions...I could interpret some of your response as an answer to one of the questions. But, I don't know why conjecture on this should be necessary.

B) Logically, given that Racism(White Supremacy) exists, White people, collectively, are smarter than non-white people.

C) When you do return, please tell me what is the"tone" of a written statement. And, what criteria are used to determine when the "tone" is incorrect.

I extend to you my sincere wishes for the dissolution of your referenced quagmires.
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Last edited by HelixHair on Wed Apr 14, 2004 3:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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cloudsong



Joined: 12 Feb 2004
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Location: Arlington VA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 7:19 am    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

Helixhair, what I mean by "tone" of your post is several things, mainly it had the effect of making me feel pushed to answer immediately before I was ready. In addition to the post of mine you quoted, I had also posted a second post to you which I'm re-quoting below - I had given quite a bit of thought to my - I think original and new - concept in the second post, which perhaps you didn't see because you only quoted the other of my two responses to you.

It was my order of answering what had come to me in response to your wording, and I was going to get to the other concepts in furture posts to you.

The problem with my life is I do what is my passion FIRST before what is my responsibility. Posting here has been like a passion for me, I enjoy the people and their minds and the ideas and the high of feeling like we're making progress in countering racism and discussing it.

But you're right in noting the length and frequency of my posts - it is out of proportion to my responsibilities. I realize I'm not doing things in my life like paperwork which have now reached crisis proportions - bill paying (the sheriff showed up at my door the other day re an upaid bill), my husband's work which I should be helping him with, my daughter's college decisions, my daughter needing my attention even though not wanting my attention...

But I've wanted a life too, other than mother/housewife, and being housebound more than I'd like, these forums have felt like an outlet where I can be helpful, thinking, and "meet" people I've come to really respect.

I don't know how the other people here give as much time as they do, and work full time jobs too. I think I'm below average in organization and I can't get a lot done because of that -- I REALLY need someone to help me get my paperwork in order.

Does anyone know anyone who would help with that? I'd pay well and I'd like a retired older woman ideally, who would be able to help me three or four hours a week. If anyone knows anyone, please tell me.

Helixhair, the question you asked is a new and different spin, a wonderful one because it involves action, and I was giving it thought. Your post to me came across as "why haven't you answered in one day" when you sometimes take several days to give a reply, as is normal and reflects your multi-faceted life.

You didn't sound like you realize I do give my best thinking here. I do give you my brains, for whatever they're worth to you, but they're worth a lot to me and I'm devoting them here rather than somewhere else. It doesn't feel that's noticed for example in your last statement -- really now, I HAVE been "standing and delivering" here: if you haven't noticed that by now, I don't have a lot of incentive to continue. Your comments don't make me feel my effort, time, or thought is noticed or, more importantly, helpful - have I said anything helpful to you on these forums?

Would you give me feedback as to what have I said that was helpful? I think I should point out, have you thought about this, I get about 90% negative reinforcement to my posts: "You're lying", "You're deceiving", "You're not revealing how white supremacy works", etc. When one is giving truth, the only truth I know, and getting these responses, most people wouldn't stay and continue. Why is negative reinforcement thought to be an effective tool here?
---
cloudsong
cloudsong wrote:
Helixhair, re making it an operative and enforceable policy to prosecute any white person who does anything to hurt black people

-- that'a a very good question, how to do that.

I think there are three separte ways of hurting black people, and each should be prosecuted differently.

One is practicing white supremacy/racism actively.

Two is a sin of omission -- it is by not protesting or objecting to the white supremacy/racism all around.

Sub-group under that is not SEEING the white supremac/racism all around -- not seeing that your bowl of corn flakes was grown by white farmers because black farmers weren't given loans, and were squeezed out of farming. Etc.

Number three, is going along with white supremacy racism. "Going along with" is different from living in a system of white supremacy/racism and failing to protest.

Failing to protest is one thing, but going along with is a more deliberate form of complicity -- going along with is giving one's passive consent, whereas failing to protest is more what 99% of people do in just living in this system.

I'm not explaining this right. Let me think how to differentiate better.

cloudsong
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amethyst



Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure if this question has been asked already or if its off topic but I'll ask it anyway.


Cloudsong, do you as a white woman feel valued under the sytem of White Supremacy?

If so, why?

If not, why not?
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cloudsong



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amethyst, yes unfortunately I do feel valued -- over-valued -- as a white woman.

I really do have to get my life in order, else I would answer at greater length.

I am drowning in a mess of a life.

When I get my personal issues on the road to being resolved and come back here, if you want I'll give you a much longer answer.

cloudsong
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Edward Williams
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cloudsong, are you going to name any other white people that practice white supremacy (racism) in this thread?
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cloudsong



Joined: 12 Feb 2004
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Location: Arlington VA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

V-God, when I come back I will, but right now, I need to get my own good name in order with unpaid creditors, etc. My husband and I are badly in debt, we like to help others and I have not been organized to pay bills even when we had the money so suddenly everything is catching up to us, we would like to buy a small house if at all possible after my daughter leaves for college (we're renting), we have health problems we are trying to get a handle on, my husband has a wonderful giving nature but it isn't helping his business make a profit -- he does wonderful work for people and doesn't charge them enough -

-- you don't want to know all my problems. I've been avoiding them and posting here as a way to feel needed and helpful. I don't know that anyone has found me helpful though.

I don't know if you know anyone like me, but I mean well but then screw up on things. I need some time to get my life in order.

cloudsong
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