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Is "white" a COLOR?
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Edward Williams
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 5:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

cloudsong wrote:
I don't want to think that white supremacy is supreme in the universe over God. And God is justice. I got Helixhair mad at me for wanting to say things like this on the other forum. I still am confused on this issue, and it's honest confusion.

What about God? Do you believe He is supreme over white supremacy? And do you believe people can connect to God and do God-like actions and have God in their lives and souls leading them to the correct things to do despite the system of white supremacy?

If so, then white supremacy is not really supreme. So maybe I truly should not use the phrase white supremacy?

cloudsong

I'm not talking about God...I'm talking about people interaction.

Now, here we are, and I hope non-white people have been reading this thread...you are still a white person and I'm still a non-white person and we're both in a SYSTEM of white supremacy (racism). Now...this is between you and me...not me you and "god"...you and me.

I still have no further information about how the SYSTEM of white supremacy (racism) works than when we started this conversation. You say you are a white person that can practice white supremacy (racism) whenever you choose to do it. We have been talking about racism (white supremacy) and I have been asking you questions about how the SYSTEM works and you have not answered all of my questions.

I have no choice but to cease this conversation if you will not answer my questions because I suspect you are practicing white supremacy (racism) against me right now. There is a possibility that you are not practicing white supremacy (racism) against me right now and if you are not I want to take the opportunity to give you the opportunity to answer my questions.

Please respond with answers to the following questions...I'll ask them to you one at a time.

What are the logical mechanics for white people benefiting from non-white people being harmed?

Please take your time and think about this question and your position in this supreme political SYSTEM and either decide to reveal truth or practice white supremacy (racism).
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cloudsong



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Virtual God, I first need to think long and hard about the answer you just gave. I am having a crisis of whether I believe in white supremacy, because I do believe that God is supreme in people's pit of their souls.

I honor the soul of every person I meet, even Hitler I would honor the God in him, though I would have murdered him upon sight. But God was in him to be honored if God could have been expressed in his life, but He was not.

If I believe in God, and God is justice, then can God be supreme at the same time as white supremacy is supreme? Can those two things be supreme at the same time? And if not, I cannot give up my belief in God being inside of each person. I need to ponder this for a while, because otherwise answering more questions about white supremacy would not make sense.

cloudsong
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cloudsong



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

V-God,

The force in you that is causing you to fight against white supremacy, and the force in me that is causing me to fight against white supremacy, is stronger than white supremacy else we couldn't think to fight, we couldn't know that WS/R is wrong.

We might be controlled by WS/R completely, we might lose the fight, but there is a force greater -- one force greater in the world.

I think that white supremacy is the second strongest force in the world. I think the greatest force in the world is God, or whatever word you want to use for God. I don't mean the Christian God or the Moslem God - I mean the God in each person, the Soul that is the part of us that doesn't die when we die.

cloudsong
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Edward Williams
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:40 am    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

cloudsong wrote:
V-God,

The force in you that is causing you to fight against white supremacy, and the force in me that is causing me to fight against white supremacy, is stronger than white supremacy else we couldn't think to fight, we couldn't know that WS/R is wrong.

We might be controlled by WS/R completely, we might lose the fight, but there is a force greater -- one force greater in the world.

I think that white supremacy is the second strongest force in the world. I think the greatest force in the world is God, or whatever word you want to use for God. I don't mean the Christian God or the Moslem God - I mean the God in each person, the Soul that is the part of us that doesn't die when we die.

cloudsong

You may be correct but...

What are the logical mechanics for white people benefiting from non-white people being harmed?
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cloudsong



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really? That makes me feel so much better, I was so afraid I was being asked to give up my belief in the God inside us, while I hoped I could believe in both the supremacy of God inside us and also WS/R, even if technically God is more supreme.

I was so upset about it. Thank you for treating my belief with respect.

I will respect you by thinking a lot before answering your next question. I will answer it by the end of the week if not before.

Thanks, cloudsong
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HelixHair



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2004 2:47 am    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

cloudsong wrote:
I don't want to think that white supremacy is supreme in the universe over God. And God is justice. I got Helixhair mad at me for wanting to say things like this on the other forum. I still am confused on this issue, and it's honest confusion.

What about God? Do you believe He is supreme over white supremacy? And do you believe people can connect to God and do God-like actions and have God in their lives and souls leading them to the correct things to do despite the system of white supremacy?

If so, then white supremacy is not really supreme. So maybe I truly should not use the phrase white supremacy?

cloudsong


Cloudsong, the statement you made that is emboldened above is false.

1) I have never said (to anyone) that I was, nor have I ever been, "mad" at you about anything. Counter-Racism, like Racism/White Supremacy, is a business. (Puhleez, I hope that nobody replies to this by saying that racism/White Supremacy is a "tool of 'capitalism'")


2) I have never said that God/Allah/Yaweh/Jehova/All-Power is subject to the White Supremacist. Further, I made no mention of God in the discussion you referenced above. Readers can verify this by reviewing the dialogue between Cloudsong and HelixHair located at these two url-s:

http://www.thecode.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=000021#000025


http://www.thecode.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000022
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cloudsong



Joined: 12 Feb 2004
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Location: Arlington VA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2004 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You said "buh bye" rather than continue to dialogue with me about whether justice exists in the universe. That's what made me think you were mad at me.

I feel paranoid that everyone on that site is out to get me, and dislikes me. Versus people out in "real life".

Forgive me if I misinterpreted you.

I'm feeing really depressed and may not be thihking clearly. Sorry. cloudsong
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cloudsong



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2004 11:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

[quote="Virtual_GOD"]
cloudsong wrote:
V-God,

What are the logical mechanics for white people benefiting from non-white people being harmed?


Virtual God,

Would you define for me "logical mechanics"? I'm not sure exactly what you precisely mean. Sorry.

Thanks. cloudsong
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Edward Williams
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:07 am    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

[quote="cloudsong"]
Virtual_GOD wrote:
cloudsong wrote:
V-God,

What are the logical mechanics for white people benefiting from non-white people being harmed?


Virtual God,

Would you define for me "logical mechanics"? I'm not sure exactly what you precisely mean. Sorry.

Thanks. cloudsong

When I say "logical mechanics" I mean the step-by-step process by which something takes place...not just the effect of it taking place but the cause as well.

When I say "the logical mechanics for white people benefiting from non-white people being harmed" I mean the step-by-step process by which racism (white supremacy) is practiced...meaning what is said step-by-step and what is done step-by-step that results in white people benefiting from non-white people being harmed.

Step-by-step what is said and step-by-step what is done by white people that practice white supremacy (racism) that results in white people benefiting from non-white people being harmed. The result and what causes the result, step-by-step.

I understand that this means you have to describe, in detail, what white people talk about, in terms of maintaining, expanding, and refining racism (white supremacy), when there are no non-white people around...but that is the duty of a white person that is interested in and involved in replacing the SYSTEM of white supremacy (racism) with a SYSTEM of justice.
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Trina



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might not ever get that information out of Cloudsong. Like I said before talking to white people about Racism/White Supremacy is liking going through a heap a trash, you might find some useful things here and there but at the end of the day you are left with a big heap of stinking trash.

Trina
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Edward Williams
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 12:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

Trina wrote:
You might not ever get that information out of Cloudsong. Like I said before talking to white people about Racism/White Supremacy is liking going through a heap a trash, you might find some useful things here and there but at the end of the day you are left with a big heap of stinking trash.

Trina

You could be correct. This is a work/study project where experiments are being run all the time. The objective, however, is to replace white supremacy (racism) with justice.
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cloudsong



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of the time that I talk to white people, black people are not around. I have a pretty isolate life in a lot of ways, home cooking and cleaning except for when I get out to protests and just a few activities, but I'm not out in the work world. But now I will be vounteering to work for Kerry's campagin, so perhaps I'll be hearing more.

I think the most destructive thing I hear white people say is that there is an even playing field now between the races. A denial of racism and white supremacy.

This benefits white people because they can succeed and think it's their own doing, not due to other people being kept from having the same chance.

I'm not thinking very well. This is just a beginning answer - is it along the lines of how you mean for me to answer the question?

cloudsong
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Edward Williams
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 1:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

cloudsong wrote:
Most of the time that I talk to white people, black people are not around. I have a pretty isolate life in a lot of ways, home cooking and cleaning except for when I get out to protests and just a few activities, but I'm not out in the work world. But now I will be vounteering to work for Kerry's campagin, so perhaps I'll be hearing more.

I think the most destructive thing I hear white people say is that there is an even playing field now between the races. A denial of racism and white supremacy.

This benefits white people because they can succeed and think it's their own doing, not due to other people being kept from having the same chance.

I'm not thinking very well. This is just a beginning answer - is it along the lines of how you mean for me to answer the question?

cloudsong

I would like the truth...nothing more. With the example you've given the next logical question is how do white people succeed by saying "there is a level playing field between the races"?

See, this conversation would be a long way around. You're not supposed to be thinking very well because we are in a SYSTEM of white supremacy (racism) and you are attempting to do something that you have not been programmed to do. You have decided that you will, according to the evidence, give non-white people information about the mechanics of how racism (white supremacy) works. See...that's the other side of the coin...there is no racist (white supremacist) code for that. According to you...you could practice white supremacy (racism) without being told by a white supremacist (racist) what to say and/or what to do. Now you have chosen to attempt to counter racism (white supremacy) and you have to do that without being told what to say and/or what to do...because there is no roadmap for doing it.

I would like for you to give me an example...a step-by-step process of how racism (white supremacy) works from the point of when a white person says something and/or does something right through, step-by-step, white people benefiting from non-white people being harmed.
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cloudsong



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I'll give you the example of Ashcroft blocking the nomination of that black judge. I'll try to think of his name -- see, even his name has been forgotten while Ashcroft's is more prominent.

When he did that, he did it obviously out of his teeth-gritting hatred of letting even one black man succeed. Frankly I don't know how Ashcroft is even able to work with Powell and Rice, but anyway, so he blocked the black judge successfully, claiming he was soft on crime.

That act of malicious white supremacy and racism caused there to be a white judge installed instead, who would presumably be more sympathetic to ruling against black people or causes that help black people in cases he adjudicates.

The ripples from that will go on and on and on. Meanwhile, Ashcroft did not have to pay for this - he still got to be Attorney General, where he is able to hurt non-white people in ways I'm sure beyond our wildest imaginings and fears. He can also hurt white people who are non-racists, and I'm sure he is and will.

Non-white men right now who are in Guantanamo, and others who are being held with no access to lawyers and no due process, are all outgrowths of all these steps of white supremacy. I think it all began when Ashcroft was born, and was obviously not nurtured and loved, and felt shame that his family was poor, and the roots of that go even further back.

cloudsong
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cloudsong



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you wanted a more personal example. There was an incident that greatly bothered me. My friend was working at Children's Hospital in another city, in the Child Life department, and I was a volunteer for her.

The hospital got a lot of abuse cases.

A little boy came in, the son of a black family from the poorest area in the city. The doctors thought it was possibly an abuse case, and told the parents that they were going to call in the social workers.

The parents immediately got angry and scared. The white doctors misinterpreted this to mean that they had something to hide. I felt the family's reaction was simply due to a picture they had of social workers, or their knowledge that black people have definitely in the past been accused with no evidence.

The child was treated, and my friend gave him a lot of toys from the toy room to take home. The father reacted with anger and said his son would not accept toys from this 'white institution'. That was seen as the father acting against the child's best interests -- again, an interpretation based on a white paradigm with no understanding of the father's perspective.

The child was sent home - he was diagnosed with a chronic disease that would require a lot of home care. The mother had other children at home and the father was unemployed. My boyfriend at the time and I asked for the address of the family so that we could go and ask them if I could help in babysitting for their other kids at no charge, and to give them some money we had at the time which we knew was a lot of their problem, caused in part by WS/R. We had fallen in love with the little boy.

We were told their address could not be given out. We asked if we could get the money to them somehows. We were told "no".

The way the white people thought they benefitted in this situation was that they got to act as the "professionals", they trivialized the feelings and frame of reference of the black family, and they probably ensured that they would have more "business" for doctors and social workers from this family for years to come, by not truly helping them, but rather really by harming them. Medically, I'm sure they helped him, but not socially or psychosocially.

I must say I disagree that white people ever really benefit from WS/R. That is why I have to qualify it and phrase it "how they think they benefit".

Now there are a lot more black nurses and child life specialists, perhaps a scenario like this would be less common. It was a combination of the things the white people were saying about the black family including wrong assumptions, combined with their actions which hurt the family.

cloudsong
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