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Let the mistreatment begin

 
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copious



Joined: 29 May 2003
Posts: 248

PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2004 3:12 am    Post subject: Let the mistreatment begin Reply with quote

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/POWABUSE/index.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4880919/

I saw the 60 minutes program that broke this story and what was the most interesting thing I heard was the general saying that these PICTURES should never of been taken. This surprised mike walace who asked don't you mean the incident, and the general caught himself, but it was an interesting exchange. The focus was on the PICTURES not the victims. I'm not surprised.

Check out the video.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml

More pictures.
http://thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/

Interesting. I guess the work IS the play and thats what makes the system of mistreatment so appealing.
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copious



Joined: 29 May 2003
Posts: 248

PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2004 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WOW. This one from the British Sunday Herald is revealing to say the least.. Male and fremale RAPES?? With pictures? .. whoa

http://www.sundayherald.com/41693
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Dan Freeman



Joined: 12 Apr 2003
Posts: 651
Location: Wherever I'm sent.

PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2004 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess that's why they say that a 'picture' is worth a thousand words. I only got 1 word:

Damn.

good find copious.

((shakes his head))

smallz
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Edward Williams
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Joined: 12 Apr 2003
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Location: I am from everywhere I've ever been and everywhere I've never been

PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2004 8:46 am    Post subject: Re: Let the mistreatment begin Reply with quote

copious wrote:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/POWABUSE/index.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4880919/

I saw the 60 minutes program that broke this story and what was the most interesting thing I heard was the general saying that these PICTURES should never of been taken. This surprised mike walace who asked don't you mean the incident, and the general caught himself, but it was an interesting exchange. The focus was on the PICTURES not the victims. I'm not surprised.

Check out the video.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml

More pictures.
http://thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/

Interesting. I guess the work IS the play and thats what makes the system of mistreatment so appealing.

Yes...but what is THE LOGIC that you are suggesting be followed?
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copious



Joined: 29 May 2003
Posts: 248

PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2004 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a list of things going on.. From msnbc.com

    The following are some of the key excerpts from the report prepared by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba on alleged abuse of prisoners by members of the 800th Military Police Brigade at the Abu Ghraib Prison in Baghdad. The report was ordered by Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, commander of Joint Task Force-7, the senior U.S. military official in Iraq, following persistent allegations of human rights abuses at the prison.

    advertisement

    (B)etween October and December 2003, at the Abu Ghraib Confinement Facility (BCCF), numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees. This systemic and illegal abuse of detainees was intentionally perpetrated byseveral members of the military police guard force (372nd Military Police Company, 320thMilitary Police Battalion, 800th MP Brigade), in Tier (section) 1-A of the Abu Ghraib Prison (BCCF).

    In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses

    a. Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;

    b. Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;

    c. Pouring cold water on naked detainees;

    d. Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;

    e. Threatening male detainees with rape;

    f. Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell;

    g. Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.

    h. Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.


    (T)he intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included the following acts:

    a. Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;

    b. Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;

    c. Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;

    d. Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;

    e. Forcing naked male detainees to wear women’s underwear;

    f. Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;

    g. Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;

    h. Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;

    i. Writing “I am a Rapest” (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;

    j. Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee’s neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture;

    k. A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;

    l. Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;

    m. Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.


    These findings are amply supported by written confessions provided by several of the suspects, written statements provided by detainees, and witness statements.

    The various detention facilities operated by the 800th MP Brigade have routinely held persons brought to them by Other Government Agencies (OGAs) without accounting for them, knowing their identities, or even the reason for their detention. The Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center (JIDC) at Abu Ghraib called these detainees “ghost detainees.” On at least one occasion, the 320th MP Battalion at Abu Ghraib held a handful of “ghost detainees” (6-8) for OGAs that they moved around within the facility to hide them from a visiting International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) survey team. This maneuver was deceptive, contrary to Army Doctrine, and in violation of international law.



PS: The LOGIC is how the mistreatments where done by US citizens in a "former" torture prison all the while only a few "guards" aka military personal or being charged. Also, on 60 mins the General who was being interviewed kept refering back to the PICTURES and not the conduct.

One of the military men being charged has allready stated that MANY "higher ups" approved of the conduct and encouraged it. He says he's going to "charge" some big people with co conspiricy. The FEMALE general who was incharge said this morning on CNN that she was going to name names as well. Could get interesting folks.

Replace Mistreatment with a System of Justice
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Edward Williams
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2004 11:03 am    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

copious wrote:
This is a list of things going on.. From msnbc.com

    The following are some of the key excerpts from the report prepared by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba on alleged abuse of prisoners by members of the 800th Military Police Brigade at the Abu Ghraib Prison in Baghdad. The report was ordered by Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, commander of Joint Task Force-7, the senior U.S. military official in Iraq, following persistent allegations of human rights abuses at the prison.

    advertisement

    (B)etween October and December 2003, at the Abu Ghraib Confinement Facility (BCCF), numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees. This systemic and illegal abuse of detainees was intentionally perpetrated byseveral members of the military police guard force (372nd Military Police Company, 320thMilitary Police Battalion, 800th MP Brigade), in Tier (section) 1-A of the Abu Ghraib Prison (BCCF).

    In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses

    a. Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;

    b. Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;

    c. Pouring cold water on naked detainees;

    d. Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;

    e. Threatening male detainees with rape;

    f. Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell;

    g. Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.

    h. Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.


    (T)he intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included the following acts:

    a. Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;

    b. Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;

    c. Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;

    d. Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;

    e. Forcing naked male detainees to wear women’s underwear;

    f. Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;

    g. Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;

    h. Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;

    i. Writing “I am a Rapest” (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;

    j. Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee’s neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture;

    k. A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;

    l. Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;

    m. Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.


    These findings are amply supported by written confessions provided by several of the suspects, written statements provided by detainees, and witness statements.

    The various detention facilities operated by the 800th MP Brigade have routinely held persons brought to them by Other Government Agencies (OGAs) without accounting for them, knowing their identities, or even the reason for their detention. The Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center (JIDC) at Abu Ghraib called these detainees “ghost detainees.” On at least one occasion, the 320th MP Battalion at Abu Ghraib held a handful of “ghost detainees” (6-8) for OGAs that they moved around within the facility to hide them from a visiting International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) survey team. This maneuver was deceptive, contrary to Army Doctrine, and in violation of international law.



PS: The LOGIC is how the mistreatments where done by US citizens in a "former" torture prison all the while only a few "guards" aka military personal or being charged. Also, on 60 mins the General who was being interviewed kept refering back to the PICTURES and not the conduct.

One of the military men being charged has allready stated that MANY "higher ups" approved of the conduct and encouraged it. He says he's going to "charge" some big people with co conspiricy. The FEMALE general who was incharge said this morning on CNN that she was going to name names as well. Could get interesting folks.

Replace Mistreatment with a System of Justice

Yes...but what is THE LOGIC that you are suggesting be followed?
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RangerX



Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 141

PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2004 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting Pictures of Non-White People being mistreated by suspect White People.

Now, If I was one of these victims in Iraq (Wether I was a "soldier" or simply a civilian of any sort), I would ask the "American" People and the "British" People who have invaded Iraq by the use of Violence, these questions:

Why are You Here ?

What is your Ultimate Objective ?

Why am I being mistreated ?

I mean, after viewing these Pictures of Non-White People being mistreated by suspect White People, ("the Good Guys", U.S./British Army), one has to ask, WHY are they there ? for what ? What is their Agenda ?

The excuses/reasons for Invading Iraq by the use of Violence by the U.S./British Army and others so far have been:

-Saddam has been "reported" to have Weapons of Mass Destruction
-Saddam has killed many of "his own" People
-The Iraq Regime is an Evil Dictatorship that can "Spread" and do harm to neighboring Civilizations and even the U.S. and others through chemical deadly weapons etc, therefore, Saddam and his men must be removed.
-We want to "Liberate" the (Non-White) People of Iraq
-We want to "Save" the (Non-White) People of Iraq, specially the Children.
-We want to help and rebuild Iraq and the Iraqy People, so that they can form "their own" (wink wink) Govt and leave in Peace and "be Free".
-We also believe and has been reported that others besides the Iraq Regime may have WMD too, so lets "take care" of them also.
-Woops, we havent found any Weapons yet, but lets keep on "fighting" this War and uuuh, Oh yeah, We gotta "Free" the Iraqy People! That is it!

And there may be many more "reasons" as to why the White Supremacist have invaded and taken over Iraq through the use of Violence.

Now some of the Reasons for the invasion may be True and Correct, others may not, all may be True, all may be False, I do not know...but...

With So many different reason/excuses of which I suspect all to be = Nigger Products, and no Clarification as to WHY and FOR WHAT has the "American" and "British" Troops have invaded and taken over Iraq through the use of Violence...I begin to get suspiscious...

White Supremacist are selling all these Nigger Products to other Niggers, and most Niggers seem to be buying all them cheap Nigger Products.

I suspect the White Supremacist Know what their Central Agenda is, their Ultimate GOAL, and they aint telling Niggers about it.

I could be incorrect, but with this prolonged "War" on Iraq, the huge mess that the White Supremacist have created between them and the Non-White People in Iraq and other places, and now these Pictures...I am wondering and left asking questions as to what the hell is going on here ?

-RangerX
RWSWJ
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salt



Joined: 19 Nov 2003
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2004 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Logically, as we may continue to talk about racism/white supremacy comes up, we must wait until non-white people realize they are in confinement. We bring up evidence of this everyday, the incident is with the mistreatment of Iraqi soldiers is just the latest example of the wide-spread mistreatment in the sytem of white supremacy. But it's gonna have to get worse before it gets better. We have to wait until non-whites realize they are in confinement and want to talk about it. It has to become a problem. All you can do is practice code. I suggest that we not confuse comfort with justice.
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cloudsong



Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 327
Location: Arlington VA

PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2004 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we all agree that we are a very very sick society in so many ways, and we are in no position to impose our values on others, in some sort of way that impliies we hve any moral superiority. There is much that is morally superior in Iraqi culture, to our culture. We have unbelievable arrogance.

Ranger XL, you KNOW many of those reasons for invading Iraq are NOT true - why beat around the bush and say they may be true?

We have to have the courage to stand up to the Bush, not beat around his lies. Bush and cronies have a blatant mindset that inevitably led to this kind of torture of Iraqis. We certainly kill enough of them with no thought that they are more than inconveniences getting in our way.

What Bush is doing is NOT in my name, or yours. We should all help by saying these things constantly, wherever we go -- speak out against our government -- those are the people who need help the most -- or is it the sick sick American torturers who need help the most?

cloudsong
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Steal My Soul



Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Posts: -37

PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2004 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think you guys are missing the point that these people were PRISONERS!
they were obviously there for a reason. I for one am glad they humiliated these people that would have no qualms about shooting an american without hesitation(white or otherwise)
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Steal My Soul



Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Posts: -37

PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2004 8:09 am    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

RangerX wrote:
Interesting Pictures of Non-White People being mistreated by suspect White People.

Now, If I was one of these victims in Iraq (Wether I was a "soldier" or simply a civilian of any sort), I would ask the "American" People and the "British" People who have invaded Iraq by the use of Violence, these questions:

Why are You Here ?

What is your Ultimate Objective ?

Why am I being mistreated ?

I mean, after viewing these Pictures of Non-White People being mistreated by suspect White People, ("the Good Guys", U.S./British Army), one has to ask, WHY are they there ? for what ? What is their Agenda ?

The excuses/reasons for Invading Iraq by the use of Violence by the U.S./British Army and others so far have been:

-Saddam has been "reported" to have Weapons of Mass Destruction
-Saddam has killed many of "his own" People
-The Iraq Regime is an Evil Dictatorship that can "Spread" and do harm to neighboring Civilizations and even the U.S. and others through chemical deadly weapons etc, therefore, Saddam and his men must be removed.
-We want to "Liberate" the (Non-White) People of Iraq
-We want to "Save" the (Non-White) People of Iraq, specially the Children.
-We want to help and rebuild Iraq and the Iraqy People, so that they can form "their own" (wink wink) Govt and leave in Peace and "be Free".
-We also believe and has been reported that others besides the Iraq Regime may have WMD too, so lets "take care" of them also.
-Woops, we havent found any Weapons yet, but lets keep on "fighting" this War and uuuh, Oh yeah, We gotta "Free" the Iraqy People! That is it!

And there may be many more "reasons" as to why the White Supremacist have invaded and taken over Iraq through the use of Violence.

Now some of the Reasons for the invasion may be True and Correct, others may not, all may be True, all may be False, I do not know...but...

With So many different reason/excuses of which I suspect all to be = Nigger Products, and no Clarification as to WHY and FOR WHAT has the "American" and "British" Troops have invaded and taken over Iraq through the use of Violence...I begin to get suspiscious...

White Supremacist are selling all these Nigger Products to other Niggers, and most Niggers seem to be buying all them cheap Nigger Products.

I suspect the White Supremacist Know what their Central Agenda is, their Ultimate GOAL, and they aint telling Niggers about it.

I could be incorrect, but with this prolonged "War" on Iraq, the huge mess that the White Supremacist have created between them and the Non-White People in Iraq and other places, and now these Pictures...I am wondering and left asking questions as to what the hell is going on here ?

-RangerX
RWSWJ

let me sum this up

"white=bad"
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cloudsong



Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 327
Location: Arlington VA

PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2004 8:27 am    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote

Steal My Soul wrote:
i think you guys are missing the point that these people were PRISONERS!
they were obviously there for a reason. I for one am glad they humiliated these people that would have no qualms about shooting an american without hesitation(white or otherwise)


SMS, I think you and I are both taking more polemical, didactic positions than we really mean.

I can't believe you really think war prisoners should be tortured or humiliated.

And I sounded annoyingly one-sided myself.

The problem with prisoners is, we don't know what these men did, or if they are just average Iraqi civilians who opposed our presence, who were captured. They may be killers, they may not be.

Our forces over there are demanding that all Iraqis accept our presence -- but what if they don't want to? What if they simply hate us being in their country --do they have no right to oppose our presence, and a right to not cooperate with our aims?

cloudsong
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